UN 206: Could Route 828 be the new 800 in Melbourne's south-east?

 

The patronage success of some relatively modest service upgrades to bus route 800 last year has raised questions about whether they could be repeated on other bus routes in Melbourne's south-east. 

If you take the 800 as the model, any other candidate route must:  

1. Be direct and on main roads for most of their alignment 
2. Serve major 7 day destinations including train stations, shopping centres and employment areas

3. Have patronage patterns that involve many short trips along sections of the route
4. Have weekend service that is 50% or less of weekday service (allowing increases with existing fleet)

5. Have boardings per kilometre patronage productivity above average for Melbourne buses
6. Not be too long, have large 'dead' areas where a service boost would be poorly used nor are significantly duplicated by other routes

All three of the long SmartBus orbitals easily satisfy the first five along most of their length.

But notwithstanding significant crowding and underservicing, especially on on weekends, the orbitals' record of getting service upgrades since being introduced about 15 years ago has been abysmal. Complications include the expense, existence of unproductive sections and overlapping routes due to a lack of network reform. Governments wishing to boost bus services have invariably looked elsewhere.

Major non-orbital routes have had a better chance of getting upgrades, even if their operating hours are (mostly) still shorter than the SmartBus orbitals. Recent examples include the 733, 767, 788, 800, 905 and 907. One to two hour runs times are typical, versus four hours for an orbital. Slightly shorter examples in the west include 420 and 460 with Route 390 one to watch in the north. All would rate well on the above six requirements. 

Other routes also meet all requirements but have missed out on service increases for a decade or more. Key examples might include the 508 between Moonee Ponds and Alphington, the 670 between Ringwood and Lilydale and the 828 between Hampton and Berwick. All have weekday frequencies in the 15-20 minute range but have gaps up to 40 - 60 minutes on weekends and at nights, despite all serving major 7-day destinations. 

Route 828 versus 800 

Today I'll just talk about the Route 828. Some comparisons with the 800 are below. 

* 828 is about twice as long as the 800.  

* But 828 serves more big shopping centres, eg Southland, Dandenong Square and Fountain Gate. 

* 828 serves major light industrial and bulky goods retail precincts at Cheltenham, Moorabbin Airport and Keysborough. The 800 services similar catchments at Springvale. 

* 828 services low income catchments at Doveton versus 800's at Noble Park and Dandenong. 

* 828 serves multiple train lines, feeding trains at four stations. It will also feed the Suburban Rail Loop from two directions. Whereas 800 parallels one rail corridor, feeding trains at two stations.

* 828's patronage productivity is above average for Melbourne's buses, though is not as high as 800's. 

* Route 828's weekend service is infrequent (40-60 min) but because it is better than Route 800's previous weekend service (every 60-120 min on Saturday and zero on Sunday) the cost of upgrading it should be similar to upgrading Route 800 for potentially a similar patronage gain.   

To summarise some differences (eg existing patronage productivity and shorter length) are in 800's favour. Whereas others (eg existing weekend service levels, number of destinations and train lines fed) favour the 828.   

How does Route 828 help network geometry in the south-east?

In summary the Suburban Rail Loop (East) will get you north-south while 828 is the main route for those in much of the south-east going east-west. Once you add connections to north-south SmartBus routes 901, 902 and 903 (some of which are poor quality due to inconvenient stop placement on main roads), the 828 is a major contributor to a multi-directional network in the south-east. 

As noted before Route 828 will feed the Suburban Rail Loop at Southland (Cheltenham in SRL-speak), making the 828 even more key to the south-east's bus network, especially if it is straightened to operate along Bay Rd to Sandringham.

The efficacy of such an SRL connection depends on (a) bus-train physical interchange being short (the current Southland bus interchange being too far away for this) and (b) Route 828 operating at a good frequency all week (not currently the case, particularly weekends). 

828 advocacy and upgrade time-line

The importance of most of today's Route 828 alignment for public transport in Melbourne's south-east has been known for at least 20 years. Here are some important milestones:

2002: A 'Principal Public Transport Network' (PPTN) identified as part of the Melbourne 2030 plan. This is defined as the routes along which 'high-quality public transport services are or will be provided'. 

2005: Linking Victoria transport plan published. View this here. 

Figure 1 on Page 12 has a PPTN including Bay Rd and the 828 east from Southland. The map on Page 51 for the south-east shows more detail. Route 800 on Princes Hwy and the Dandenong end of Route 800 on Heatherton Rd also appear here. 

'Priority actions' (in 2005) included: "Upgrade key existing PPTN bus services to SmartBus standard with a focus on northern and western Melbourne".

These were indeed done (in a reduced scope fashion) with orbital routes to Altona, Airport West and Melbourne Airport introduced by 2010's end. However the network has gained no further Smartbus routes since.  

January 2006: The complex route 826, 827, 828 corridor from Hampton to Pakenham was simplified to two routes (827 and 828) with Pakenham end being served by a new route 926 from Fountain Gate. 827 and 828 were 90% the same route except for 827 serving Hallam Gardens. 

2 October 2006: Then routes 827 and 828 gained longer hours and 7 day service, with each operating every 2 hours on weekends to provide an hourly service over the large common section. Prior to that there was no Sunday service. Short trips between Hampton and Southland would continue to provide a 30 minute frequency between Hampton and Southland on Saturday mornings (a legacy from past routes that often had a frequent Saturday morning service but no or limited Saturday afternoon service). 

These upgrades were an early part of the May 2006 'Meeting our Transport Challenges' program that upgraded more than 100 Melbourne bus routes to run until at least hourly until 9pm all week. 

2010: Booz & Co bus network review for Bayside, Kingston, Boroondara and Glen Eira commissioned by the Department of Transport recommends consolidating routes 827 and 828 into a single route 828 with 'main route' status. This would be similar to the existing 828 except for some increased west Dandenong coverage and a direct route to Sandringham via Bay Rd (instead of Hampton to Highett). 

Booz recommended the 828 would run every 15 minutes in the weekday peaks and every 30 minutes on Saturdays and Sundays. However, possibly due to a wish to harmonise with weekday trains (then) every 15 or 30 minutes, they recommended a downgrade of weekday interpeak frequency from 20 to 30 min (which I regard as poor for what they themselves designate as a main route). 

December 2010: Route 827 trips at Hampton were consolidated into the existing Route 828 operating every 20 minutes weekdays and 60 minutes weekends. This provided a simpler single route service to Berwick. Hallam Gardens was served by a new route 891. However the west Dandenong and Sandringham realignment recommendations from Booz were not adopted. Neither were the frequency changes. 

2011: Rumour amongst bus drivers that Route 828 could be upgraded to a SmartBus status, possibly sparked by the bus network review. Nothing came of it. 

2014: PTV plan for a more frequent bus network reported on. The document linked is no longer available but the 828 corridor is likely to be one of those proposed for upgrade. 

2016: BusVic call for a frequent Route 828 SmartBus from Sandringham amongst other bus improvements across Melbourne. Watch the Nine News report on this here.  

December 2018: Route 828 Saturday timetable reformed. The Hampton - Southland Saturday morning short trips were removed in favour of a 40 minute frequency across the entire route during the day (replacing the previous 60 minutes).  

November 2024: Route 800 on Princes Hwy upgraded to every 30 min on weekends after a community advocacy campaign. Saturday patronage rises by 200% with strong usage of the new Sunday service. The 800 - 828 similarities noted above indicate that the latter's usage too could respond well to weekend service boosts.  

2025: City of Kingston starts advocating upgrades to south-east buses including an upgraded route 828 operating every 20 minutes on weekends, a Bay Rd connection and a Mordialloc - Monash University service. Fix Dandy Buses strongly supports the City of Kingston advocacy here. It is hoped that other councils, such as Bayside, Greater Dandenong and Casey who share the 828 with Kingston, advocate similarly.   

Conclusion

What can we learn from the above?

* Firstly there is a strong case for the Route 828 to get a seven day upgrade given its strong usage and the precedent set by the success of last year's very successful Route 800 upgrade. 

* Secondly many people (including transport authorities) have proposed or advocated upgrades to the Route 828 corridor for at least 20 years.

* Thirdly that there is a general consensus on the type of service that is desired - that is a SmartBus type route from Sandringham along Bay Rd to Southland and then the existing 828 corridor to at least Berwick.

* Fourthly that when someone recommends or advocates an upgrade, something normally happens within two years, though typically well short of what the proponent wants. This has occurred on at least three occasions between 2005 and 2018. This track record means that time advocated for an improved 828 bus is not time wasted. 

* Fifthly we are overdue for an 828 upgrade, noting the development along the corridor and it feeding both Metro Tunnel and SRL rail lines. With ministerial interest in improving bus services, buses being highly cost-effective ways to deliver transport improvements across larger areas and a state election coming next year, right now seems a good time for 828 supporters to organise given the strong case that exists. 

See other Useful Network items here

First day of the new bus franchises - list of bus routes and operators

Today is the day the reformed bus franchises commence for more than one-third of Melbourne's 350-odd bus routes.

Ryans, Kastoria and Panorama will vanish as route service operators while others will see some shuffling of routes. This refranchising continues the 50 year trend of small family bus companies merging, being purchased by or otherwise losing routes to larger operators. The government hopes that these larger operators will have the scale to efficiently handle the transition to a zero emissions fleet. Certain oddities, like some bus companies retaining their own non-PTV livery, will disappear. 

Enthusiasts rode last buses from finishing operators in big numbers, particularly Ryans routes. The Footscray - Yarraville City Band marked the end of 78 years of Ryans bus services at Essendon in style. Ryans had a reputation for holding buses for late-arriving trains with the 465 a particularly successful rail feeder for Essendon commuters. It is hoped that these arrangements will continue under the new operator.

What's changing for operators?

CDC is the biggest winner from this process with its largely western-based empire growing to include the Craigieburn line north with gains from Kastoria/Broadmeadows Bus, Ryans and Dysons.  Kinetic also grows, with it gaining Dysons routes in the Brunswick and Reservoir areas. However Dysons grow in the north-east, taking over Panorama routes. 

Very roughly this leaves the big operators distributed something like this (clockwise around bay):

CDC: Werribee line, Sunbury line, Craigieburn line
Transit Systems: Williamstown line, Melton
Sunbury Bus Service: Sunbury
Dysons: Mernda and Hurstbridge lines
Kinetic: Melbourne inner ring, Eastern Freeway corridor, SmartBus orbitals
Ventura: East and South
Cranbourne Transit: Cranbourne

CDC also has routes in the south-east while Ventura has routes in the north. 

Size will vary depending on if you count by fleet size, routes covered or service kilometres, but these arrangements leave Melbourne with three big route bus operators, being CDC, Kinetic and Ventura. Then Dysons, Transit Systems, Cranbourne Transit and Sunbury Bus Service. That's now pretty much it except for Martyrs, McKenzies and Bacchus Marsh Coaches with a handful of routes in the outer east and west. A far cry from the 20, 30 or more smaller operators there used to be decades ago. 

What's changing for passengers?

If all goes smoothly passengers will hardly notice the transition to a new operator. Routes and timetables will stay the same. Which is not always to the good for routes and timetables that really need reforming. For example Kinetic in Reservoir inherits some of that area's unreformed routes from Dysons who in turn took them over from the Reservoir Bus Company. 

Werribee CDC routes 170, 180, 190 and 192 are exceptions where timetables are getting with longer hours and improved frequencies thanks to 2025 state budget-funded service upgrades. These were due to start today, though at the time of writing TWU strikes threaten to disrupt these and other CDC routes (including some operated by other companies up to yesterday). 

Route and operator list 

Below is a list of routes and operators for all regular (ie non-Night Network / non-school) fixed bus routes in metropolitan Melbourne:  

Route Route name Operator (as of July 1 2025)

150 Williams Landing Station - Tarneit Station CDC

151 Williams Landing Station - Tarneit Station CDC

152 Tarneit Station - Williams Landing Station CDC

153 Williams Landing Station - Werribee Station CDC

160 Tarneit Station - Hoppers Crossing Station CDC

161 Hoppers Crossing Station - Werribee Station CDC

166 Hoppers Crossing Station - Wyndham Vale Station CDC

167 Tarneit Station - Hoppers Crossing Station CDC

170 Tarneit Station - Werribee Station CDC

180 Tarneit Station - Werribee Station CDC

181 Hoppers Crossing Station - Werribee Station CDC

182 Tarneit Station - Werribee Railway Station CDC

190 Werribee Station - Wyndham Vale Station CDC

191 Werribee Station - Manor Lakes CDC

192 Werribee Station - Wyndham Vale Station CDC

200 City (Queen St) - Bulleen Kinetic

201 Deakin University - Box Hill Station Ventura

202 Melbourne University - Yarra Bend Kinetic

207 City (Queen St) - Doncaster SC Kinetic

215 Highpoint SC - Caroline Springs Kinetic

216 City (Queen St) - Sunshine Station Kinetic

220 Sunshine Station - Sunshine Station Kinetic

223 Highpoint SC - Yarraville Kinetic

232 City (Queen Victoria Market) - Altona North Kinetic

234 City (Queen Victoria Market) - Garden City Kinetic

235 City (Queen Victoria Market) - Fishermans Bend Kinetic

236 City (Queen Victoria Market) - Garden City Kinetic

237 City (Queen Victoria Market) - Fishermans Bend Kinetic

246 Clifton Hill - Elsternwick Kinetic

250 City (Queen St) - La Trobe University Kinetic

251 City (Queen St) - Northland SC Kinetic

270 Box Hill - Mitcham Kinetic

271 Box Hill - Ringwood Kinetic

273 Nunawading Station - The Pines SC Kinetic

279 Box Hill - Doncaster SC/Templestowe Kinetic

280 The Pines SC Kinetic

281 Templestowe - Box Hill Kinetic

282 The Pines SC Kinetic

284 Box Hill - Doncaster Park & Ride Kinetic

285 Doncaster Park & Ride - Camberwell SC Kinetic

293 Box Hill - Greensborough Kinetic

295 Doncaster SC - The Pines SC Kinetic

301 La Trobe University - Reservoir Dysons

302 City (Lonsdale St) - Box Hill Station Kinetic

303 City (Queen St) - Ringwood North Kinetic

304 City (Lonsdale St) - Doncaster SC Kinetic

305 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - The Pines Kinetic

309 City (Queen St) - Donvale Kinetic

318 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - Deep Creek Kinetic

343 Greensborough - Hurstbridge Dysons (was Panorama)

350 City (Queen St) - La Trobe University Kinetic

356 Epping Station - Wollert East Dysons

357 Thomastown Station - Wollert West Dysons

358 Epping Station - Wollert Dysons

364 Ringwood Station - Warrandyte Kinetic

370 Mitcham - Ringwood Kinetic

381 Mernda Station - Diamond Creek Station Dysons

382 Northland SC - Whittlesea Dysons

383 University Hill - Palisades Dysons

384 Whittlesea - Kinglake Dysons

385 Greensborough - Mernda Station/Whittlesea Dysons

386 Bundoora RMIT - Mernda Station Dysons

387 Bundoora RMIT - Mernda Station Dysons

388 Mernda Station Dysons

389 Mernda Station Dysons

390 Craigieburn Station - Mernda Station Dysons

400 Sunshine Station - Laverton Station Transit Systems / CDC

401 North Melbourne Station - University of Melbourne Transit Systems

402 East Melbourne - Footscray Transit Systems

403 Melbourne University - Footscray Station Transit Systems

404 Moonee Ponds - Footscray Station Transit Systems

406 Footscray - Keilor East CDC

407 Highpoint SC - Avondale Heights CDC

408 St Albans Station - Highpoint SC CDC

409 Yarraville - Highpoint SC CDC

410 Footscray - Sunshine Station CDC

411 Footscray - Laverton Station CDC

412 Footscray - Laverton Station CDC

414 Footscray - Laverton Station CDC

415 Williamstown - Laverton Station CDC

417 Laverton Station - Laverton North CDC

418 St Albans Station - Caroline Springs CDC

419 St Albans Station - Watergardens Station CDC

420 Sunshine Station - Watergardens Station Transit Systems

421 St Albans Station - Watergardens Station CDC

422 Sunshine Station - Brimbank Central SC Transit Systems

423 St Albans Station - Brimbank Central SC CDC

424 St Albans Station - Brimbank Central SC CDC

425 St Albans Station - Watergardens Station CDC

426 Sunshine Station - Caroline Springs Kinetic

427 Sunshine Station - Sunshine West Transit Systems

428 Sunshine Station - Sunshine West Transist Systems

429 Sunshine Station Kinetic

431 Yarraville - Kingsville Transit Systems

432 Newport - Yarraville Transit Systems

439 Werribee Station - Werribee South CDC

441 Werribee Station - Westleigh Gardens CDC

443 Werribee Station (clockwise) - Werribee Station (anti-clockwise) CDC

444 Rockbank - Aintree Transit Systems

452 Melton Station - Eynesbury Bacchus Marsh Coaches

453 Melton Station - Melton Transit Systems

454 Melton Station - Cobblebank Station Transit Systems

455 Melton Station - Micasa Rise Transit Systems

456 Melton - Sunshine Station Transit Systems

457 Melton Station - Melton Transit Systems

458 Melton Station - Kurunjang Transit Systems

459 Melton Station - Arnolds Creek Transit Systems

460 Watergardens Railway Station - Caroline Springs Station CDC (was Kastoria)

461 Watergardens Station - Caroline Springs CDC

462 Watergardens - Caroline Springs CDC (was Kastoria)

463 Watergardens - Hillside CDC (was Kastoria)

465 Essendon Station - Keilor Park CDC (was Ryans)

467 Moonee Ponds Station - Aberfeldie CDC (was Ryans)

468 Essendon - Highpoint SC CDC (was Ryans)

469 Moonee Ponds - Keilor East CDC (was Kastoria)

471 Sunshine Station - Williamstown Transit Systems

472 Williamstown - Moonee Ponds Transit Systems

475 Diggers Rest - Sunbury Sunbury Bus Service

476 Moonee Ponds - Watergardens CDC (was Kastoria)

477 Moonee Ponds - Broadmeadows Station CDC

478 Airport West SC - Melbourne Airport CDC

479 Airport West SC - Sunbury Station CDC

481 Sunbury - Mount Lion Sunbury Bus Service

482 Airport West SC - Melbourne Airport CDC

483 Sunbury - Moonee Ponds Sunbury Bus Service

484 Broadmeadows - Roxburgh Park CDC

485 Sunbury - Wilsons Lane Sunbury Bus Service

486 Sunbury - Rolling Meadows Sunbury Bus Service

487 Sunbury - Killara Heights Sunbury Bus Service

488 Sunbury - Jacksons Hill Sunbury Bus Service

489 Sunbury - Canterbury Hills Sunbury Bus Service

490 Airport West - Gowanbrae CDC

494 Williams Landing Station - Point Cook South CDC

495 Williams Landing Station - Point Cook South CDC

496 Laverton Station - Sanctuary Lakes CDC

497 Williams Landing Station - Saltwater Coast Estate CDC

498 Laverton Station - Hoppers Crossing Station CDC

501 Craigieburn Station - Donnybrook Station CDC (was Kastoria)

503 East Brunswick - Essendon Kinetic (was Dysons)

504 Moonee Ponds - Clifton Hill Kinetic (was Dysons)

505 Moonee Ponds - Melbourne University Kinetic (was Dysons)

506 Westgarth - Moonee Ponds Kinetic (was Dysons)

508 Moonee Ponds - Alphington Kinetic (was Dysons)

509 Barkly Square SC - Brunswick West Kinetic (was Dysons)

510 Essendon Station - Ivanhoe Station Kinetic

511 Donnybrook Station - Mandalay CDC (was Kastoria)

512 Strathmore Station - East Coburg Kinetic

513 Glenroy - Eltham Dysons

514 Glenroy - Eltham Dysons

517 Northland SC - St Helena Dysons

518 Greensborough - St Helena West Dysons

524 Donnybrook Station via Olivine & Peppercorn Hill CDC

525 Craigieburn Station - Donnybrook Station CDC (was Dysons)

526 Coburg - West Preston Ventura

527 Northland SC - Gowrie Ventura

528 Craigieburn Station - Craigieburn Central SC CDC (was Kastoria)

529 Craigieburn Station - Craigieburn North CDC (was Kastoria)

530 Campbellfield - Coburg CDC (was Kastoria)

531 Upfield Station - North Coburg CDC (was Kastoria)

532 Craigieburn - Broadmeadows CDC (was Kastoria)

533 Craigieburn - Craigieburn North CDC (was Kastoria)

534 Glenroy - Coburg CDC (was Dysons)

536 Glenroy - Gowrie CDC (was Dysons)

537 Craigieburn Station - Craigieburn West CDC (was Kastoria)

538 Somerset Estate - Broadmeadows CDC (was Dysons)

540 Broadmeadows - Upfield CDC (was Dysons)

541 Broadmeadows Station - Craigieburn North (Mt Ridley Rd) CDC (was Dysons)

542 Pascoe Vale - Roxburgh Park CDC (was Dysons)

543 Roxburgh Park - Greenvale Gardens CDC

544 Craigieburn - Roxburgh Park CDC (was Kastoria)

546 Heidelberg - Melbourne University Kinetic (was Dysons)

548 La Trobe University - Kew Ventura

549 Northland SC - Ivanhoe Ventura

550 La Trobe University - Northland SC Ventura

551 La Trobe University - Heidelberg Ventura

552 Northcote Plaza - North East Reservoir Kinetic (was Dysons)

553 Preston - West Preston Kinetic (was Dysons)

554 Lalor Loop Dysons

555 Epping Plaza SC - Northland SC Dysons

556 Northland SC - Epping Plaza SC Dysons

557 Thomastown Dysons

558 Reservoir - Reservoir Kinetic (was Dysons)

559 Thomastown Station Dysons

561 Pascoe Vale - Macleod Dysons

564 Bundoora RMIT - South Morang Station Dysons

566 Northland SC - Lalor Dysons

567 Regent - Northcote Kinetic (was Dysons)

569 South Morang Station - Epping Plaza SC Dysons

570 Bundoora RMIT - Thomastown Dysons

577 South Morang Station - Epping Plaza SC Dysons

578 Warrandyte - Eltham Station Dysons (was Panorama)

579 Warrandyte - Eltham Dysons (was Panorama)

580 Diamond Creek - Eltham Station Dysons (was Panorama)

582 Eltham Station Dysons (was Panorama)

600 St Kilda Station - Southland SC Kinetic

601 Monash University (Clayton) - Huntingdale Station CDC

603 Burnley Station - Brighton Beach Station Kinetic

604 Anzac Station - Elsternwick Kinetic

605 City - Gardenvale CDC

606 Elsternwick Station - Fishermans Bend CDC

609 Fairfield - Kew/Hawthorn Kinetic (was Dysons)

612 Chadstone SC - Box Hill CDC

623 St. Kilda - Glen Waverley CDC

624 Kew - Oakleigh CDC

625 Elsternwick - Chadstone SC CDC

626 Middle Brighton - Chadstone SC CDC

627 Moorabbin - Chadstone SC Ventura

630 Elwood - Monash University CDC

631 Southland SC - Waverley Gardens SC Ventura

663 Lilydale - Belgrave Ventura

664 Knox City SC - Chirnside Park SC Ventura

668 Ringwood Station - Croydon Ventura

669 Ringwood Station - Croydon Ventura

670 Lilydale - Ringwood Ventura

671 Chirnside Park SC - Croydon Ventura

672 Chirnside Park SC - Croydon Ventura

675 Mooroolbark - Chirnside Park SC Ventura

677 Lilydale - Chirnside Park SC Ventura

679 Ringwood - Chirnside Park SC Ventura

680 Lilydale - Mooroolbark Ventura

681 Knox City SC Ventura

682 Knox City SC (Anti-Clockwise) Ventura

683 Chirnside Park SC - Warburton Martyrs

684 Eildon - Ringwood McKenzies

685 Healesville - Lilydale McKenzies

688 Croydon - Upper Ferntree Gully Ventura

689 Croydon Station - Montrose Ventura

690 Boronia - Croydon Ventura

691 Waverley Gardens SC - Boronia Ventura

693 Oakleigh - Belgrave Ventura

694 Belgrave - Mt Dandenong Ventura

695 Belgrave - Gembrook Ventura

696 Monbulk - Olinda Ventura

697 Belgrave - Belgrave South Ventura

699 Belgrave - Upwey Ventura

701 Oakleigh - Bentleigh Ventura

703 Middle Brighton - Blackburn Ventura

704 Oakleigh - Clayton Ventura

705 Mordialloc - Springvale Ventura

706 Mordialloc - Chelsea Ventura

708 Hampton - Carrum Ventura

709 Mordialloc - Waterways Ventura

732 Box Hill - Upper Ferntree Gully Ventura

733 Oakleigh - Box Hill Ventura

734 Glen Iris - Glen Waverley Ventura

735 Box Hill - Nunawading Ventura

736 Mitcham - Blackburn Ventura

737 Croydon - Monash University Ventura

738 Knox City - Mitcham Ventura

740 Vermont East - Mitcham Ventura

742 Ringwood Station - Chadstone SC Ventura

745 Bayswater - Wantirna /  Boronia Ventura

753 Glen Waverley - Bayswater Ventura

754 Rowville - Glen Waverley Ventura

755 Bayswater - Knox City SC Ventura

757 Knox City SC - Scoresby Ventura

758 Knox City SC - Knoxfield Ventura

760 Seaford - Cranbourne Ventura

765 Mitcham - Box Hill Ventura

766 Burwood - Box Hill Ventura

767 Southland SC - Box Hill Ventura

770 Frankston - Karingal Ventura

771 Frankston - Langwarrin Ventura

772 Frankston - Eliza Heights Ventura

773 Frankston - Frankston South Ventura

774 Frankston - Delacombe Park Ventura

775 Frankston - Lakewood Ventura

776 Frankston - Pearcedale Ventura

777 Karingal  SC - McClelland Drive Ventura

778 Kananook Station - Carrum Downs Ventura

779 Frankston - Belvedere Ventura

780 Frankston - Carrum Ventura

781 Mt Martha - Frankston Station Ventura

782 Frankston - Flinders Ventura

783 Frankston - Hastings Ventura

784 Frankston - Osborne Ventura

785 Frankston - Mornington East Ventura

786 Rye - St Andrews Beach Ventura

787 Safety Beach - Safety Beach Ventura

788 Portsea - Frankston Ventura

789 Frankston Station - Langwarrin Cranbourne Transit

790 Langwarrin - Frankston Station Cranbourne Transit

791 Frankston Station - Cranbourne Station Cranbourne Transit

792 Cranbourne Station - Botanic Ridge and Pearcedale Cranbourne Transit

795 Cranbourne - Warneet Cranbourne Transit

796 Cranbourne Station - Clyde Cranbourne Transit

798 Cranbourne Park SC - Clyde North Cranbourne Transit

799 Merinda Park Station - The Avenue Village SC Cranbourne Transit

800 Dandenong - Chadstone SC Ventura

802 Dandenong - Chadstone SC Ventura

804 Dandenong - Chadstone SC Ventura

811 Dandenong - Brighton Ventura

812 Dandenong - Brighton Ventura

813 Dandenong - Waverley Gardens SC Ventura

814 Dandenong - Springvale South Ventura

816 Keysborough South - Noble Park Station Ventura

822 Chadstone SC - Sandringham Ventura

823 North Brighton - Southland SC Ventura

824 Moorabbin - Keysborough Ventura

825 Moorabbin - Southland SC Ventura

828 Hampton - Berwick Ventura

831 Berwick Station - Kingsmere Estate Ventura

832 Frankston - Carrum Downs Ventura

833 Frankston - Carrum Downs Ventura

834 Berwick Station - Narre Warren Ventura

835 Berwick Station - Narre Warren Ventura

836 Berwick Station - Eden Rise SC Ventura

837 Berwick Station - Beaconsfield East Ventura

838 Fountain Gate SC - Emerald Ventura

839 Berwick Station - North Berwick Ventura

840 Pakenham - Gembrook Ventura

841 Narre Warren North - Cranbourne Ventura

842 Fountain Gate SC - Endeavour Hills SC Ventura

843 Dandenong Station - Endeavour Hills Ventura

844 Dandenong - Doveton Ventura

845 Endeavour Hills - Dandenong Ventura

846 Berwick Station - Eden Rise SC Ventura

847 Casey Central SC - Berwick Ventura

848 Dandenong - Brandon Park SC Ventura

850 Dandenong - Glen Waverley Ventura

857 Dandenong - Chelsea Ventura

858 Edithvale - Aspendale Gardens Ventura

861 Dandenong - Endeavour Hills Ventura

862 Dandenong - Chadstone SC Ventura

863 Endeavour Hills SC - Cranbourne West Ventura

881 Clyde North - Merinda Park Station Cranbourne Transit

885 Glen Waverley - Springvale Ventura

887 Frankston Station - Mornington Peninsula Ventura

888 Berwick Station - Clyde Ventura

889 Berwick Station - Clyde North Ventura

890 Lynbrook Station - Dandenong Station Cranbourne Transit

891 Fountain Gate SC - Lynbrook Station Cranbourne Transit

892 Dandenong Station - Casey Central SC Cranbourne Transit

893 Dandenong Station - Cranbourne Park SC Cranbourne Transit

894 Hallam  Station - Amberly Park Cranbourne Transit

895 Fountain Gate SC - Narre Warren South Cranbourne Transit

897 Clyde North - Lynbrook Station Cranbourne Transit

898 Cranbourne Station - Clyde North Cranbourne Transit

899 Berwick Station - The Avenue Village SC Ventura

900 Stud Park SC (Rowville) - Caulfield Ventura/CDC

901 Melbourne Airport - Frankston Kinetic

902 Airport West - Chelsea Kinetic

903 Altona - Mordialloc Kinetic

905 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - The Pines SC Kinetic

906 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - Warrandyte Kinetic

907 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - Mitcham Kinetic

908 City (King/Lonsdale Sts) - The Pines SC Kinetic

922 St Kilda Station - Southland SC Kinetic

923 St Kilda Station - Southland SC Kinetic

925 Pakenham Station - Officer South Ventura

926 Fountain Gate SC - Pakenham Station Ventura

927 Pakenham Station - Pakenham North Ventura

928 Pakenham Station - Cardinia Road Station Ventura

929 Pakenham Station - Pakenham North (Army Rd) Ventura

Closing remarks

The new arrangements tidy up operator arrangements in some areas. In theory having fewer operators should make area-based network reform easier, though it still depends on political will. Possibilities for network reform synergies were discussed here, though some areas such as Reservoir, Heidelberg and Altona North, continue to have a mish-mash of operators. In some cases this is because arrangements vary with contracts having differing expiry dates (eg Ventura's run until 2028). 

The transition to electric buses has not been trouble-free in other cities. Sydney's fleet has had difficulties with batteries. Some North American cities, especially, have had to choose between electrification and better service with the latter sometimes suffering. That can lead to perverse outcomes as electric buses with poor occupancy do less for cutting overall emissions than well used diesel buses on frequent efficient routes. Melbourne's first electrified depot (Ventura Ivanhoe) is a cautionary example of how you can electrify buses but if you keep them on their same part-time, infrequent and duplicative routes then you are not going to get the full potential benefits.  

Plain old good contract management by DTP is also key. The name 'Transdev' still sparks horror in Melbourne bus circles due to that operator's disastrous fleet maintenance crisis of 2017. But government and PTV management of the time is equally culpable as, like rowdy kids in a classroom, private operators will do (or not do) whatever they think they can get away with.

That a resolution only came about after the intervention of Transport Safety Victoria is particularly damning of lax PTV contract management as even the average passenger could see that basic cleaning, and even at times maintenance, was not being done. Not only that but there are seemingly few ongoing consequences for lowballing or poor performance in Melbourne, with Transdev winning the tram franchise a few years after it lost the bus contract. 

The lesson from this is that, despite a heavy political focus on building in the last decade, operations and service delivery are equally important. The government needs to expect a high standard from DTP contract management to get the most value from its infrastructure builds and the transport system generally. It is this that will have a large bearing on the success or otherwise of these contracts. 

UN 205: Will GPT replace DTP? An AI derived bus network for Box Hill

An ABC item earlier this month says that AI-based large language models like Chat GPT could help plan cities. An Age article says that AI bots could help slim down the Victorian public service. That's topical given the state government is looking for savings with its Silver review due to report this month. 

So for fun I gave ChatGPT a task:  

Describe a reformed bus network for the Box Hill area with a list of main routes and the roads they travel on.

This is the response, pasted verbatim, including formatting. 

🚌 Proposed Key Bus Routes for Box Hill Area

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Route 1: Box Hill – Deakin University – Burwood Station (University Link)

• Primary Purpose: High-frequency link to Deakin University

• Roads: Whitehorse Rd → Elgar Rd → Riversdale Rd → Station St (Burwood)

• Frequency: Every 10 min peak / 15 min off-peak

---

Route 2: Box Hill – Doncaster Shoppingtown via Station St

• Primary Purpose: Cross-suburban shopping and employment access

• Roads: Station St → Doncaster Rd

• Frequency: Every 10–15 min

---

Route 3: Box Hill – Blackburn – Forest Hill – Vermont South

• Primary Purpose: East–west connector through middle suburbs

• Roads: Whitehorse Rd → Blackburn Rd → Canterbury Rd → Burwood Hwy

• Frequency: Every 15 min

---

Route 4: Box Hill – Surrey Hills – Camberwell

• Primary Purpose: Local access and feeder to Camberwell Station

• Roads: Whitehorse Rd → Union Rd → Riversdale Rd

• Frequency: Every 20 min

---

Route 5: Box Hill – Mitcham – Ringwood

• Primary Purpose: East–west orbital route

• Roads: Whitehorse Rd → Springvale Rd → Maroondah Hwy

• Frequency: Every 15 min

---

Route 6: Box Hill – Donvale – Ringwood North

• Primary Purpose: North-east local connector

• Roads: Elgar Rd → Wetherby Rd → Mitcham Rd → Warrandyte Rd

• Frequency: Every 30 min (coverage route)

---

Route 7: Box Hill – Glen Waverley

• Primary Purpose: South-east orbital route, university + train link

• Roads: Elgar Rd → Highbury Rd → Springvale Rd → Kingsway (Glen Waverley)

• Frequency: Every 15 min

---

Route 8: Box Hill – Balwyn – Kew – Clifton Hill

• Primary Purpose: North–south route into inner suburbs

• Roads: Whitehorse Rd → Balwyn Rd → Harp Rd → High St

• Frequency: Every 20 min

---

🚏 Supporting Feeder & Local Routes

• Shorter, less frequent routes feeding into Box Hill and key train stations.

• Potential local shuttles to areas like Greensborough, Mont Albert North, Forest Hill Chase, etc.

---

🎯 Network Features

• Simplified, straight routes with fewer deviations.

• Clockface frequencies for ease of use.

• Improved weekend & evening services.

• Integration with trains and trams, especially at Box Hill, Glen Waverley, and Camberwell.

• Direct access to major trip generators like Deakin University, Box Hill Hospital, and shopping centres.

Chat GPT's map

You could request a map. The output gave me a Python script. I wanted to bypass this for an image I could present directly. That required me to log in to ChatGPT. 

The result was what you see below (click for a better view). There is no geographical accuracy. Eg Ringwood North is shown south of Camberwell and a long way from Ringwood while Glen Waverley is north-east of Doncaster. 

My map of 8 main routes

Using the written route descriptions I tried to make a map that was geographically accurate with regards to Box Hill, route termini and streets the routes would run along. That proved a challenge as some route descriptions lacked sufficient detail to make their paths unambiguous. My best attempt is below:  

As instructed the network is centred on Box Hill. Some routes are sensible. Others are sensible but could be longer to connect with other destinations (like existing routes currently do). Others you might not do.

Quick comments on each are as follows: 

1. Box Hill - Burwood station. Alignment is good between Box Hill and Deakin Uni, being similar to existing popular routes. However Burwood station on the quiet Alamein line is a weak terminus. Also this section of the route would overlap the longer and more frequent 75 tram so you wouldn't' do it. .  

2. Box Hill - Doncaster. An useful and direct connection this segment is currently served by the much longer 903 orbital. If it was linked to the Route 1 proposed above it would match a longer section of the 903. 

3. Box Hill - Vermont South. Has similarities with the existing 732 but is shorter and goes along more of Whitehorse Rd. 

4. Box Hill - Camberwell. A route with benefits for Surrey Hills but it inefficiently overlaps too much of the 70 tram on Riversdale Rd. 

5. Box Hill - Ringwood. Description here is ambiguous (with mention of Springvale Rd) but I've understood it to mean a direct Whitehorse Rd/Maroondah Hwy route. Not without merit despite it paralleling a rail line as there are a large number of destinations along the highway.  Existing routes like 271, 279 and 901 serve this section but not continuously. There may be a case to be splitting Route 901 at Ringwood and South Morang and rethinking what happens in between. That might include a Box Hill - Ringwood route on the highway. 

6. Box Hill - Ringwood North. The route description was not clear so what you see on the map is possibly not what was intended. This was described as a coverage route with a 30 min frequency (most of the others were every 15 min).

7. Box Hill - Glen Waverley. The alignment and the frequency is good in that, combined with Route 1, this would provide a 7.5 minute frequency between Box Hill station and Deakin University. The current network does not provide a direct Box Hill to Glen Waverley bus as one would not add a lot of new coverage. However it does link two major activity centres. This concept has similarities with a Liberal election promise in 2022 which may be where ChatGPT got the idea. 

8. Box Hill - Clifton Hill. Alignment again not clear, especially at Clifton Hill end. Parts have similarities with existing Route 302 (though this goes into the city). 

The above was the first network option that came up. Had I asked ChatGPT a different question or given it guidance the result will have been different. 

Conclusion

This (free) version of ChatGPT AI has a way to go when it comes to designing bus networks.

But more advanced paid types with more data input and other guidance may produce more sensible networks. 

Or, given the planning and scheduling software already used in the industry like HASTUS and Remix maybe an AI plug-in to enhance its planning function is how this will evolve in the future? 

What about other applications for AI in transport? AI can give reasonable answers for things like customer feedback. Maybe even journey planning. It might help with advocacy or submission writing, like I tried here.

However the AI you get when you do a Google search can mix things up. For instance when I did various searches on the Bus Plan the result conflated official and unofficial sources, such as from DTP and my blog. Personally I would love the day that a lazy official, unaware of this, produces a report that includes slabs of my blog as official policy. 

The old saying is 'Garbage In, Garbage Out'. Proper use of AI possibly means that its search be limited to official and verified sources rather than what just anyone says. Though DTP/PTV data can be wrong so an official source is not by itself a guarantee of correctness. AI risks just exacerbating existing errors. AI also needs a knowledgeable driver - that is people using it need to be learned enough that they can spot an error and correct.  

Comments on AI's potential role in transport are appreciated and can be left below. 

See other Useful Network items here